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Author Topic: Tactical loadout on a vest for the shotgun  (Read 12384 times)
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« on: June 28, 2009, 11:39:07 pm »

I've been looking around for an idea on loadouts on tactical vests for a shotgun setup. I'm coming to the conclusion that the 12 round molle pouches loaded up on a vest is the best idea. Along with tactical strippers for faster reloading.

I'm thinking about this loadout in terms of a "civilian sheepdog" scenario. Any ideas or reference links that anyone could pass my way?
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D/\taM/\gg0t_mk1
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« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2009, 12:08:40 am »

Well, If I'm venturing outside of the house with a rifle (and it's not duck season), it sure won't be a shotgun. Call me a wimp, but my shotgun is big and heavy and slow.  I'd suggest a fighting carbine.  However, if you are shopping for some webbing. I'm a big fan of: HSG http://www.highspeedgearinc.com/

Weight of a fully Loaded Carbon-15 Rifle = 6.77 lbs. That's including 30 rounds of .223. I'm pretty sure that my Mossberg 590A1 w/Surefire fore end and 3" Mags: 7 in the tube + 6 in the saddle weighs twice that.

If you do get a cool 12-ga config, please share it.  I've only ever seen people over at the zombies forums talking about lugging hundreds of tons of 12-ga around.  ..hey maybe you're onto something that I've never given much though over.  I'm over due for taking the Practical Shotgunner course at FrontSight... maybe that will change my tune as well.

I really think the 00-Buck serves best when I'm barricaded up with the family in a safe room waiting for the robbers to leave... or if I'm in a breaching situation. (Hope neither ever happen)
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 12:48:46 am by D/\taM/\gg0t_mk1 » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2009, 12:18:30 am »

I've got one of these:
TacStar SideSaddle Shotshell Ammunition Carrier 12 Gauge 6-Round
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=410025
They are great.

As for shell carriers, a friend of mine used one of these for a practical rifle course.
Comp Tac Belt loaders: http://www.comp-tac.com/product_info.php?products_id=86


I'm using a Maxpedition Dump Pouch, however, I never use it properly.

I can't remember is you got a Rem or a Mossberg...
you may be interested in throwing a single point sling on that bad boy.
GG&G makes a nice hook attachment here:
http://www.gggaz.com/index.php?cat=60

Also, if you do not already have it, a ghost ring is a very important sight to have on a shotgun.
I've been meaning to upgrade my Front Sight to an XS Tritium sight:
http://www.xssights.com/store/shotgun.html
« Last Edit: June 29, 2009, 12:50:14 am by D/\taM/\gg0t_mk1 » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2009, 09:09:43 am »

A place called FMCO Combat makes a nice LBV for shotgun.  If you don't mind sinking $200 into a specialized vest.

http://www.antipersonnel.net/fmco/001.html

That would probably be the best way to go if your wanting something special tailored for the 12.  Blackhawk makes some stuff too I think, but I don't agree with their politics or business model so I don't know for sure.  I think they may be just as expensive as the FMCO vest anyways.

IMO, 12g. is NOT the ideal weapon for "civilian sheepdog".  A carbine of some type in a pistol caliber like 9mm or .45 would be better.  But to quote Mr. Rumsfeld, you go to war with what you have, not what you want.
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« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2009, 07:20:39 pm »

Well, I'm on a budget and I've already got the gun. I'd love to go with a carbine type weapon, but that's farther down the road for me. At the moment, I have to "push with the cock I got." I'm currently trying to do more research about the shotgun in combat situations so I can pull useful information from it. I'd love to go to a regular class environment, but again, I'm on a budget. So, I have to train the best way I can for now.

I've actually had to take the side saddle off the buttstock (Mossberg 500 Persuader) because it's ackward for the moment to train with for quickly reloading. For now, I'm looking into tactical strippers to carry some of the ammo and being able to reload. The information that I've read about combat shotgunning is basically stripping the gun down to it's bare minimum so it weighs less. All the fancy aimdots, ghost rings, side saddles, seems to hinder basic uses of the gun. Some of the pros mention it and for now, it makes sense to me.

After a couple of hours searching around I've found that Blackhawk makes a descent size shotgun shell molle holder. It's basically like the 12 round holder, but they've added addition holders on the outside of it so it holds 19. I'm not looking to reload directly from those, just a secure way to hold more ammo. Unless I can find other information, I'll probably go with a Blackhawk vest with their shotgun round holders. Then, I can train with that equipment and evolve it as best as I can.
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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2009, 08:50:33 pm »

Search for a shotgun speedloader or shotgun speed stripper.
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« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2009, 09:07:36 pm »

Here, this may help:


http://www.vestbuilder.com/
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« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2009, 09:41:11 pm »

I've actually had to take the side saddle off the buttstock (Mossberg 500 Persuader) because it's ackward for the moment to train with for quickly reloading.
I meant a side saddle up on the receiver, as shown in the photo:

that isn't my rifle, barrel shrowds are evil and should be banned Roll Eyes

I'm currently trying to do more research about the shotgun in combat situations so I can pull useful information from it. I'd love to go to a regular class environment, but again, I'm on a budget. So, I have to train the best way I can for now.
Just start going to tactical matches..  They're a great excuse to use your rifle. They help you figure out what works and what doesn't. If you're shooting an Irons round, you can get away with shooting slugs or even bird shot.  ..if shooting paper, it's important to shoot buckshot, to learn what you can do with your pattern. 

Just for the record, if you plan on running around with this thing outside, you will need a sling. Personally, I'd single point it using the GG&G mount. ...failing that a 2-point sling: VTAC, Vickers etc.

IF you are using this rifle for HOME DEFENSE, you do not want a sling attached to your weapon. You should also have a flashlight mounted to the weapon that you can activate while staying in control of the rifle. I opted for the Surefire, and it's everything I could have wanted. There are several less expensive solutions out there.

Here is a description of the course I plan to attend:
Quote
Upon completion of the course, you will have the ability to rapidly and decisively engage targets out to 25 yards and you will know your weapon and ammunition well enough to deliver buckshot to end a hostage scenario! Select slugs drills will extend the range of your control out to 100 yards. This course is a must for anyone who chooses to own or use a shotgun for defense or duty.

Lecture Topics Include:

Use of Deadly Force and the Law;Color Code of Mental Awareness; Civil Liability; A,B,C Engagement Zones; Weapon and Ammunition Selection; Tactics; and more.

Firing Range Drills Include:

Loading and Unloading; Firing Stance; The Three Secrets; Carry Positions; Patterning; Offhand, Kneeling, Sitting; Target Engagement from 7-25 yards under Time Pressure; Multiple Targets; Tactical Reloading; Select Slug Drill with Firing out to 50 Yards; Malfunction Clearing; Tactical Simulator Introduction; Emphasis on Tactical Training Simulation using Reactive Steel Targets and Shoot/No Shoot Targets in a variety of scenarios.

300 rounds of birdshot,
250 rounds of 00 buckshot,
75 rounds of slug ammunition required.
I wish you the best of luck in your search. The Practical Shotgun is still a bit of a mystery to me. Please keep us informed on your progress.
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101011
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« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2009, 10:15:52 pm »

Quote from: Tych0
Here, this may help:

http://www.vestbuilder.com/

Holy crap! Good find!  Grin

Quote from: D/\taM/\gg0t_mk1
I meant a side saddle up on the receiver, as shown in the photo:

I might add one at a later point once my skills are at my satisfaction by loading from tactical strippers. I'm still wondering how one of those would mount up to the Mossberg 500 Persuader, I'm not seeing any kind of areas to accept one.

Quote from: D/\taM/\gg0t_mk1
Just start going to tactical matches...

I didn't think about that, I'll start looking up events in my area.

Quote from: D/\taM/\gg0t_mk1
...you will need a sling.

I agree, the thing does get heavy after a bit. I've looked into 3/2/1 point slings. The 3 point I think would reduce my reaction time having to deal with a strap in the way of the slide. I think the 2 point might also present a problem if I had a tact vest on with pouches on the front of it. I saw a video from Nutnfancy on youtube where he had a problem popping the shotgun up to his shoulder and the pouches got in the way. So, I will probably got with a single point for the range visits.

Quote from: D/\taM/\gg0t_mk1
You should also have a flashlight mounted to the weapon...

Yeah, I really should. I just worry about the cliche' scenario where the bad guy shoots at the light. But, with proper training, this won't be such a worry.

Quote from: D/\taM/\gg0t_mk1
The Practical Shotgun is still a bit of a mystery to me. Please keep us informed on your progress.

Exactly. I've shot them before, just not in a tactical fashion. So, that's a bit of a mystery for me sof far but I'm closing that gap up. I'll definitely share my information.  Wink
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« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2009, 01:35:17 pm »

Another ammo carrying solution is is the Pull-Out 12GA tray
http://originalsoegear.com/12tray.html
http://originalsoegear.com/12palstray.html
They are basically inserts for AR-15 type mag pouches. The benefit of these things are if you decide to go with a AR-15 style rifle at some point in the future you will already have a bunch of mag pouches to use in configuring that kind of tac vast or chest raid solution.

As far as configuring the shotgun itself it kind of depends on how you're going to use it. What I mean by this is if you're going to use it strictly as a home defense weapon you do not really need to worry about the slang or really the weight of the weapon. Because as long as you can move your way through your house that's all you really need.

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« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2009, 08:59:44 pm »

Quote from: Tych0
Here, this may help:

http://www.vestbuilder.com/

Holy crap! Good find!  Grin



Thanks. I've been getting into paintball lately (woodsball) and found that stuff while searching for Tippmann Alpha Black- compatible folding stocks.

Also, I second mounting a flashlight on a home defense shotgun. (I'd prefer a pistol for HD, but that's due to space constraints where I live). Something Scott talked about in a thread a while back really stuck with me: wherever you point your flashlight, you are also pointing your barrel, and you have to remember that every time you shine your light at something to see it (unless of course like any wog would do, you have multiple light sources instantly available, cuz you're like, wog and stuff), you are also pointing a destructive and deadly weapon at whatever you're shining it at. Perhaps one way of overcoming this would be to have a laser or laser/light combo mounted?
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« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2009, 04:02:52 am »

Quote
All the fancy aimdots, ghost rings, side saddles, seems to hinder basic uses of the gun. Some of the pros mention it and for now, it makes sense to me.

You gain wisdom, Grasshopper.  Furthermore, the fewer bells and whistles, the fewer things to get dirty, broken, or otherwise inoperable.  Under combat conditions, Murphy is your co-pilot and you will end up having to make do with a lot of things you normally wouldn't even consider.  Best you don't burden yourself with things you can't fix yourself on the fly.

In that respect, the Mossberg is one of the best survival shotguns going becuase of the ease with which it can be repaired (with appropriate spare parts, of course).  That, and its less expensive cousin, the Maverick, the parts are almost completely interchangeable except for the safety and those parts which engage it.

12 rounds isn't enough for a combat load out with the shotgun.  As has been already noted, a shotgun is not a good field weapon for combat because the weight-per-shot is somewhat dismal.

HOWEVER, I fully understand "push with the cock ya got" and I DO have shotguns in my own battery at home for perimeter defense, and you never know when I might not have the luxury of one of my carbines for an extended engagement.

Remember that if you're packing a long gun afield, weight is your enemy (but you already know that from your first statement I quoted up there).  So, you're going to be CARRYING more than you will be SHOOTING, and when you're SHOOTING it will be in a life-saving capacity, so recoil is not going to be as big a deal for you.  Thus, the secret is a LIGHTER shotgun so you can carry MORE ammo.

Go synthetic as far as buttstock and forearm go -- lighter without sacrificing too much strength and doesn't warp with humidity, doesn't crack or chip as easily either.  If this is a combat gun and you intend to really engage real-life bad guys with it, you are going to beat the hell out of this piece of equipment and you want it to work all the time, every time, not necessarily look pretty doing it.

That means, if you have a chance, get the metal coated with some kind of protective coating...parkerizing at the very least, hard chrome or other industrial noncorrosive finish at best.  Trust me.  Most bad guys don't wait to attack you in good weather.  With Mr. Murphy along, you'll have to engage multiple enemies you can hardly see while crouched in the mud during a torrential downpour.  Make sure your firearm can handle that task.

As far as your loadout, I'd recommend being able to reload your magazine from dry at least six times.  If you've got a four-shot weapon, that's 24 rounds;  Five-shot weapon, 30 rounds.

If you're running a Saiga 12 with 10-rd magazines, that's about 60 rounds.

To be honest, that's STILL not enough for an extended firefight in my opinion...but it IS enough to "get you through one alive," if you're sparing with your shots and generally hit what you're aiming at.

And those of you who have shot trap and skeet know that a standard box of 25 rounds isn't light...double that if you're talking about buckshot, and you start to realize that the more shells you carry, the heavier your weight, and the slower you can go.

Putting the shells on the vest sounds like a good idea;  I don't do it that way but that's just my preference.  I won't dictate how you handle your ammo.  The way I carried my combat ammo for my Crowd Pleaser back when I had my shotgun "for real", I carried a bandolier of 25 buckshot rounds for my Maverick 88 and later, my Remington 870.  That, plus a fistful (usually another 6-12) in a pocket and I figured I was okay for an engagement.

If you want a solid rule of thumb, I'll give you this:

FOR A COMBAT SHOTGUN, YOUR MINIMUM LOADOUT SHOULD BE 25 AND YOUR MAX SHOULD BE NO MORE THAN 60 ROUNDS OF 2 3/4" BUCKSHOT ROUNDS.

Do not mix loads.  Don't listen to the idiots who tell you to alternate between birdshot, buckshot, and slugs...that's a recipe for disaster and those who tell you that either haven't actually been in combat, or have read too many books, or both.

A cornerstone of marksmanship is consistency.  Another cornerstone of effectiveness is being able to accurately predict the damage your firearm is going to do BEFORE you pull the trigger so you know what to look for.  No one I know of, combat veterans and competition shooters alike, can actively, accurately count their shots during a string.  They either tactically reload or reload from empty -- what this translates to is that if you alternate your ammunition, you don't KNOW what's coming up in the chamber, so you really have no way of using "the right tool for the right job" -- and thus, mixing your ammunition is moot.  Sounds great and way smart on paper, but doesn't translate well to the real world of stopping deadly threats.

So stick with buckshot.  I go with 00 buck because not only is it traditional, I know it's going to be at least 9 pellets of .33 coming out of my shotgun, which is, in my opinion, close to the equivalent of a 9-shot burst from a submachine gun at close range.  This is also why the shotgun is called the "poor man's submachine gun."

It is recommended that your tactics reflect this.  Engage, engage, cover, reload, engage, engage, but NEVER run your gun dry -- the advantage to a tube magazine is that you can top it off like a tactical reload every time you find a break in your shot strings, behind cover, which means you will never waste ammo and you shouldn't EVER reload from dry unless you're in the middle of an extended shot string...and if you practice, you'll understand that your shot strings need to be short, two to three, NEVER your full magazine capacity, because if you're out in the open and you run dry, you're pretty much dead.

Because as the shotgun, you're throwing out enough lead to be suppressive fire.  When that suppresive fire stops...who do you think target number one is going to be?

No less than 25.  No more than 60.  Synthetic stock.  Rifle or ghost ring sights if you can afford them, standard physical bead sight if you can't.  No breakables.  Keep your weapon clean and well-serviced, and for Server's sake, KNOW YOUR FUCKING MANUAL OF ARMS.

Sorry, that's a pet peeve of mine.  Where a guy who says he knows fuck-all about shotguns picks up a Mossberg that's already cocked and he can't figure out how to rack it and won't listen.  That's the kind of stupidity you need to avoid if you want to survive with this weapon.  Know where the safety is.  Know where the pump release is so you can rack a live shell out INSTEAD OF PULLING THE FUCKING TRIGGER TO FIND OUT IF IT'S EMPTY.  The release is different on different models.  The Winchester and Mossberg have it on the lefthand lower side of the receiver BEHIND the trigger guard.  The Remington 870 has it on the righthand side of the FRONT of the triggerguard.

KNOW YOUR GUN.

And take some tactical classes.  Note that they will require roughly double to five times as much as your regular loadout, or more, for the class, but remember that the class can be multiple days.

After Tactical Shotgun class, you will know how much ammo you want to load out when carrying a shotgun as your primary battle weapon, and you won't need my guidelines anymore, because you will know, instead of simply having been told.

How you carry that ammo is up to you.  I like loose in a pouch or in VERY easy to access loops...Not fond of vest carry.  But that's just me.  I don't use speed loaders or speed strippers, but that's not to say they aren't good...it's just that I learned shotgun long before they came into vogue and my technique works for me so far and I don't see a point to changing it.

Finally, don't listen to the armchair commandos who tell you "Ah, you don't need to aim a shotgun, just point it in the general direction of your target, that's why they're so great for defense."

I'll tell you straight up that quote is pure-D bullshit.  First off, at your engagement distances, with an 18-20 inch barrel (that is, from about 10-25 yards), your shot pattern from 00 buckshot (9 pellets of .33) is almost coverable by a fist.  So you'd damn WELL better aim that thing or you will MISS, and that's a hell of a lot of lead to be accountable for that doesn't hit your target.

Second, your goal, when using buckshot, is to make sure ALL your pellets hit your target.  A "general direction" shot may hit your target with one or two, but now you haven't fully incapacitated someone who's trying to kill you AND you've put out some high velocity lead that's going in a direction you didn't intend.

If you've ever shot skeet or trap, you will understand that you DO need to aim a shotgun, and not only that, understand a shotgun's pattern so that you can aim it in such a manner that the most number of pellets hit your intended target.

Once you do that, you can use a shotgun to its greatest devastating effect, and yes, you CAN use it as a combat weapon.

But you must understand its strengths and weaknesses, and train to play to and mitigate them, respectively, long before you have to bet your life on its deployment and use.

S
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« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2009, 09:42:24 am »

Once again, it's nice having you back Scott.

Back when Scott helped me out with the concept of Battle Loads, all I had to go on was the Home Defense Shotgun.

Since the 'outside' shotgun and the HD version are two very different beasts, they fall into different categories.

My Home Defender is:
Mossberg 590A1 (Chopped off the Bayonette Lug)
8+1 +6 in the saddle = 15 total rounds on the weapon.
Surefire Fore end for Mossberg (chopped bayonet lug to fit flashlight)

Box of 00 Buck next to it, done.


It still needs an XS front sight, but nothing else will happen to her.


When I get more free time, I'll discuss my desires in a combat shotgun. ...and the shotgun I will take to a course... as instructed by the institute.

Thanks for the wisdom, it's very enjoyable reading your posts again old buddy.

-maggot out
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« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2009, 02:38:43 pm »

That is great write up Scott.

I would go with 3" 00 buckshot over instead of 2 3/4" if your gun can handle shooting 3" shells after all if you more pellets downrange can't hurt  Grin unless you're downrange.
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« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2009, 06:44:45 pm »

In concern with the type of ammo, I was reading an article where a guy was explaining it in concern to "zones". Zone "A" is within 25 yards, typically used with 00 buckshot. Zone "B" is 25-35 is the sketchy area between the buckshot and slugs. He then mentioned that some people go just straight slugs and skip the zoning process.

The temptation to use just straight slugs is high, but then loss of buckshot capabilities is a concern. I wouldn't load different types of loads in the shotgun either, I have a hard enough time just concentrating on breathing as it is.  Wink

Good write up Scott, I was waiting for you to chime in with some information. I'm itching to get some training down now.
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