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Loopster
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« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2008, 10:41:14 AM »

I think that that is the key to it. Teaching the theory of things instead of actually doing it is the secret. Thinking back on my own schooling, most of the stuff we learned was in a book with the notable exception of my physics class. I got the highest grade in the class for physics while all the other classes were mediocre grades at best. The staff couldn't figure out why because as far as they were concerned, I was just a loser who was going to just scrape by. Truth be told, I was just bored.

Of course I have an arithmetic book from 1895 that has the following question:
Code:
By an accident a boy had 2 fingers cut from his right hand, and 3 from his left hand. How many fingers has he left?
Math used to be a lot more risque apparently. lol.
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Scott Skawronska
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« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2008, 12:36:27 PM »

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Becuase that instructor is also a student in their firearms class, they see that a) being an authority in one thing does not make one all-knowing, and b) being well-educated makes it easier to pick up new knowledge and skills becuase you already know how to learn.

And that's great in theory.  The only problem with it is when you add to the mix the evil that is the self-centered human ego.  All to often this is the truth:

"Expertise in one field does not carry over into other fields. But experts often think so. The narrower their field of knowledge the more likely they are to think so."

--Robert A. Heinlein

However, if we could get past that conceit that seems to be instrumental in all recognized "experts", it might work.  Trouble is, this conceit includes almost every member of the human race in one form or another.  Everybody is good at SOMETHING and most think that because they're good at SOMETHING they're good at EVERYTHING.

Unfortunately, myself included...the only difference between me and experts only in one field is that I'm a recognized expert in several, as I suspect many of you are as well: "Polymath" is the name for us, along with "Renaissance Man," or "Jack of all Trades".  Adam Savage hit the nail on the head with the phrase: "Jack of all trades, Master of none, often times better than a Master of one."

Hackers, as Adam noted, tend to be Polymaths, because it takes a gestalt of disciplines in order to stay current with computers.  Ironically, even though I myself am a Polymath, I am not as current as many of my younger contemporaries, and I daresay many of you folks are a good deal smarter than me, and I won't deny it hurts my ego a bit to admit it.

Which is where I get back to the point of the Teacher/Student relationship.

I realize it's easy for me to learn.  Show me, teach me the theory, let me do it a few times, show me how to improve, and turn me loose.

I figure it's pretty much the same for all of us HERE.

But how to begin teaching a CHILD...not only the knowledge, but the mores and customs of the society?  How to be polite.  How to tell someone "no" without hurting their feelings.  More pointedly:  How NOT to hurt people's feelings UNINTENTIONALLY.  Children are cruel little fuckers in general, and this is most evident in the public school system.  I honestly believe that many of my society's ills have their gestation and breeding ground in the school system.  How do we contribute to the solution and not the problem?  How can we teach our kids to handle the crap WE had to put up with as smart, iconoclastic individuals bearing the weight of the cruelty, stupidity, and the schadenfreude of the less intelligent and less talented chipping away at our fragile, still-developing psyches while we were busy trying to learn?  The crap we STILL put up with because of our own arrested social developments in the aftermath of such abuse?  Let's face it, much of modern society, especially in the "dumbed down" areas of Corporate America like the entry-level jobs, are still ruled by "schoolyard rules."

We need to both teach our kids their own "emotional armor" for dealing with assholes, while simultaneously teaching them how NOT to become assholes themselves.  How to defend themselves EFFECTIVELY in a socially appropriate manner.  How NOT to become the aggressor wihout just cause.

It's all part of the psychological aspect of socialization, and honestly, Polymaths and other highly intelligent individuals, because of who we are, tend to make our own rules in this respect...that's not always a good thing when our rules are in conflict with those of society.

"Don't get too high on your moral high horse.  The only difference between right and wrong is the number of people who agree with you."

-- Sean Kennedy, "Wear Body Armor."

If you go against the grain in your society SOCIALLY, as many of us have found, it makes things difficult.

So perhaps some "charm school" options might be a good idea for Wog School, taught by folks OTHER than us, who are more skilled in social interaction.

Just sayin'.  I try to recognize my limitations, and social interaction is one of them.  I suspect that it is thus with a good amount of us here, though I also highly suspect that about half that live in a happy self-delusion they are not in that number.

That's a course I could see a lot of "us teachers" taking:  Charm school.

Definitely need to offer it in the curriculum.  Dealing with other humans, no matter how silly and ignorant they may be, is unfortunately the way we as a society may get things done on a larger scale than ourselves.  It behooves us not to ignore it.

S
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2008, 02:09:05 PM »

One of the things that is left out of society (not just school) is the art of talking to others, that is, how to deal. The mind set of people in general is to pay the posted price, to take what is given to them, to not rock the boat. It is essential that people learn to question things and not in the classroom sense but on the whole. There are not a lot of independent people although they all think they are. That is the beauty of it.

For teaching a child, the best and most effective way to get across those things which can't be easily put into words, is by doing them and having the child watch. After it happens, you discuss it with them so you can be sure they understand the subtleties. There really should be a class where two 'teachers' compete with each other and then discuss it with the students afterwords. These kinds of dealings are often talked about in theory (like bartering) but in actual practice you don't see anyone do it, ever.
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Scott Skawronska
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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2008, 08:28:34 PM »

Excellent point.

"Social Studies" shouldn't be a politically correct term for world history.  "Social Studies" should be about how people interact and the learning of social techniques such as conversation, bargaining, even rhetorical argument.  Especially the verbal arts of self defense.  Sort of a verbal ju-jitsu.

I agree.  We should have time where social interaction can be taught as well as experienced.  For kids to learn "social assimilation" in the schoolyard appears to be a recipe for failure without some form of guidance beforehand.

S
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« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2008, 10:00:25 AM »

Yeah, I was at a street fair a few weeks back and the guy was going to charge my wife $7 for a bag of kettle corn. I told her the price was way too high and that I would haggle him down to $5. She freaked out and said I was crazy. "You don't tell someone else what they can charge for THEIR stuff!" she shouted at me. I told her I wasn't telling him what HE should do, I was going to tell him what I was willing to pay." She pondered it for a few minutes, she had expected I was doing it simply to be a jerk, and then she calmly said, "that's still not right."

She was really taken by surprise and thought that 'haggling' was something only for "people in the middle east." I told her that most Americans are idiots BECAUSE they only take what is handed to them. Only a moron would take what I give them and not want something better for themselves and their family. At this point I was getting mad at her submissiveness to the status quo. Her, who had rebelled against so many things in her life was totally and completely submissive to the status Quo. So I asked her why she tried to get a better deal than the sticker price when she bought her car. She said it was different, blah blah blah, and we talked about it some more.

I was pretty happy that she spent the rest of the day mulling over it. Maybe she will try to get a better deal next time she goes out to spend my paycheck   Wink
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« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2008, 02:14:36 AM »

/applause @ Enloopious
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Loopster
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« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2008, 03:06:00 PM »

Thanks 101011, I have never been applauded before.
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2008, 02:38:13 AM »

Quote
Becuase that instructor is also a student in their firearms class, they see that a) being an authority in one thing does not make one all-knowing, and b) being well-educated makes it easier to pick up new knowledge and skills becuase you already know how to learn.

And that's great in theory.  The only problem with it is when you add to the mix the evil that is the self-centered human ego.  All to often this is the truth:

"Expertise in one field does not carry over into other fields. But experts often think so. The narrower their field of knowledge the more likely they are to think so."

--Robert A. Heinlein

However, if we could get past that conceit that seems to be instrumental in all recognized "experts", it might work.  Trouble is, this conceit includes almost every member of the human race in one form or another.  Everybody is good at SOMETHING and most think that because they're good at SOMETHING they're good at EVERYTHING.


Embarrassingly enough, that had not occurred to me.  The idea came from an ongoing experience - I earn my living by teaching university English.  As part of my pay, I get tuition waivers - one 3-credit class for every semester I teach.  I started work on a History degree.  Some of my classmates in lower-div history courses are my former (and one current) English students, and I have to say it's not something I worry about.  I know having a graduate degree in one discipline does not make me an expert in others - even one as closely related as history is to English. 

On the other hand, I'm an educated individual, not an "expert".  Part of what I know is how much there is in the world that I don't yet know.  Hell, even in the classes I teach, I sometimes hear a new perspective on a text or topic (admittedly not terribly frequently, but sometimes), and I try to be classy enough to acknowledge it and appreciate it.  Most of the people I know who also earn their living teaching are pretty similar in that respect - we're not omnipotent, and we don't claim to be. It doesn't mean we're not flawed, arrogant, and sometimes damn pig-headed, just that most of us are eager enough to learn new things to be willing to check our egos at the door for the duration of a new class Cheesy  This especially holds true for the martial arts instructors I know, but my academic acquaintances are pretty adept at it as well.

Wow. This my be my longest non-gun related post on the forums.  Anyhow, don't discount the ability of people to control their egos - especially if the educators have a chance to meet and learn to respect each other, as I imagine most wogs do Smiley


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Alas! they had been friends in youth;
But whispering tongues can poison truth;
And constancy lives in realms above;
And life is thorny; and youth is vain;
And to be wroth with one we love
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Coleridge "Christabel" lines 408-13
Loopster
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2008, 01:26:35 PM »

Well, that problem is specific to people who have been the 'authority' for a long time. The longer you are treated like the only person in the know, the harder it is to shake it. That being said, at a school where it is common practice to have lots of different specialists who spend a lot of time NOT being the specialist, they would either adjust or move on.

The thing people don't think about very often is that schooling is the biggest form of class discrimination out there. Rich people are given the choice of which school they want to go to whereas us poor people cross our fingers and hope we get into a school that is somewhat acceptable, even with perfect grades.
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2008, 05:54:07 AM »

A friend of mine recently went through this school:

http://www.woodbadge.org/

It's a training program for boy scout leaders. It seems to cover a lot of the basics needed for survival.

Worth investigating.
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« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2008, 03:53:08 PM »

The idea of schooling others - whether it be children, teenagers or other adults - has been a topic of discussion among a few of us for quite some time. We have the same desire to share information, learn from others then refine our techniques to get a better understanding.

I would say that a school, especially one where the learner is attending away from home for a significant amount of time, is not feasible for many reasons. It would be great to be able to teach a new generation of people how to think for themselves. Unfortunately that's pretty far out of our reach.

Then what could be done? Wait.... not a school, not a summer camp. A convention!

Come to WOG CON!
Make a website. Publish the convention program and describe it in non-threatening currently-accepted doublespeak. At big conventions, there's always featured speakers, registration, badges, a program booklet, swag from advertisers and a room for vendors to display their products. Is this so far fetched of an idea? Those things provide an air of legitimacy. It doesn't matter what the convention is actually about.

So what's there to do at WOG CON? Attend workshops and programs with information, explanations and hands-on interaction, whether that's working with a material object or intellectual concept.

If we think about all of the useful programs that could be presented, there are a few that contain critical skillsets, and others that make life in this society easier. How would you like to attend two- to four-hour seminars on some of the following topics:

Social Etiquette - How to speak to and interact with other people. Verbal self-defense. Information security.
Urban Survival - Getting from point A to point B safely and efficiently. Awareness and stealth. Orienteering.
Self-sustainment - Basic personal maintenance - budgeting, shopping, cooking, cleaning, repairing, sewing.
Basic Chemistry - Useful chemicals, how to obtain them, their safe handling and use. Protective equipment.
Self Defense - Protecting yourself from threats you're most likely to encounter. Weapons, the law and you.
Handy Skills - The basics of carpentry, mechanics, metalworking, electrical, electronics, plumbing, masonry.
Job Skills - Word processing, spreadsheets and databases. Cash handling. Customer service. Sales. Phones.
Intelligence Skills - Observation, critical thinking, documentation. Research. Stealth and concealment.
Enrichment - Writing. Listening. Art in different expressions. Music. Gardening. Storytelling. Astronomy.
Cleverness - Problem solving individually or in a group. Creative uses for common objects. Useful math.
Esoteric Arts - Facts about the different world religions. Meditation. Spiritual awareness. Stress-reduction.

Advanced programs such as how to deal with law enforcement could be presented as a group learning session. Some classes such as first-aid, welding, defensive driving and so forth should really be taught by credentialed professionals and wouldn't be part of the convention. Unless the local Red Cross is contracted to come in and present a course on First Aid and CPR.

Conventions provide a great cover for all sorts of gatherings. They can be as short as a few hours or as long as a week and a half. They can be held annually, semi-annually or quarterly. It's all just a matter of funding. Well, that's what the vendors and registration is there for.

It would be a tremendous undertaking to organize a convention like this, but it could certainly be done. And besides all of the officially presented information, could you imagine what you'd be able to learn in the small break-away sessions that happen after the end of the scheduled seminars?

Several dozen to several hundred WoGs all in one place learning from each other? Outstanding!
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« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2008, 07:49:05 PM »

I'm just going to throw this out there but: how about Vegas? The motherland of all conventions. They have the right kind of gun laws for a fire arms class and there are other benefits as well. There would have to be an entrance fee to cover the costs of the area and maybe we could even work out a deal with a place like Machine Gun Kelly's.

Vegas facts:
*The slower convention times of year are Jan, Feb, June, and Dec.
*Vegas has four major convention facilities: the Las Vegas Convention Center, the Cashman Center, Sands Expo  Convention Center, and the Mandalay Bay Convention Center.
*The agency in charge of coordinating conventions in the Las Vegas is the Las Vegas Convention and Visitors Authority (LVCVA). http://www.lvcva.com/

This might help too: http://www.groople.com/

And just like DefCon we could have "Spot the Narc" or "Spot the Terrorist" or some other silly contest. We could have one room with 24hr episodes of patrolling. Another room could have wilderness survival films running. Another room could have hacking shows like The Broken. 

Just a thought.
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2008, 07:56:32 AM »

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Come to WOG CON!

Sounds like an awesome idea. Oh the many things that it could bring we just need to have people who have ideas for booths and such and get it started right away.
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« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2008, 02:29:00 PM »

Wog Con is an excellent idea.  It will allow Wogs to schedule something well in advance, save up for it, and actually show.

And the workshops are a great concept.

We could have Rantster there with a booth, we could sell Wog Stuff, SKTFM stuff, Rant Radio stuff, we could have concessions (Wog Foods!), and GAMING (Amazing how we remember the tiniest details about our gaming...why not have Wog Gaming?  Create our own RPG's based on a D20 or GURPS system, or both, and actually entice folks to play.

The "Spot the Teorrist" contest is inspired.  I like that a lot.

This is actually quite doable.

It would be nice to actually get SKTFM as a guest of honor.

Let's talk about this some more...in detail.

We can do this.

S
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« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2008, 07:26:18 PM »

Sounds like it needs its own thread and a lot more logistical ideas before the fun ones.
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